Acne Scar Treatments Archive 10
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  John-- CO2 Laser Failure -- Laura, 02:31:05 01/14/03 Tue

  John,

  I read in your post that you had CO2 for your scars but had no improvement. I
  am just curious, because I have heard and read so much about this laser
  surgery being extremely effective on depressed scars. I have consulted two
  plastic surgeons, both of whom assured me that if I did the laser my scars
  would be gone. I am not doubting your story, just wondering if this too is all
  hype. From what I could see in the doctors' own before and after photos, the
  recovery period looked pretty gruesome, and I'd hate to put myself through
  this for nothing. Could you please tell me, did your plastic surgeon offer any
  explanation to you for the failure? Did he or she offer to try again (at his
  or her expense)? Thanks for any more info.
 

   Please reread my previous message -- Brandon, 00:57:40 01/14/03 Tue

  I took issue ONLY with PK's exaggeration about the number of people with whom
  she had communicated about needling. That is very clear in my previous post. I
  was NOT saying she was being untruthful about her own results.

  She originally said she had communicated with SEVERAL people from THIS BOARD
  who had originally said they saw improvement then didn't bother to come back
  and post when their results diminished. This was an exaggeration and a little
  bit too dramatic. If she wants to report her own results, fine. But there was
  no need for her to make up a ficticious hoarde of people to back her up. When
  pressed, she was able to come up with one person, a person who had never even
  posted on this board before.

  Now, please go back and read my previous post, then re-read this one. I have
  no problem with PK reporting her own results, but I DO have a problem with her
  making up results of non-existant people.

  I have not undergone needling myself and I have no reason to "defend" people
  who have done it. What I do defend is an interest in keeping this board
  unbiased and genuine. Thank you.
 

  Needling -- Thankyou Spainiard, 22:59:38 01/13/03 Mon

  Spainiard, thankyou for your cadided honesty. I have had a few hypotrophic
  scars cut out in the past and they have looked great for the first couple of
  weeks , then allah kazam there they are again. i want to thank you for your
  post as I want people to see both views of these new miracle cures

  What worries me though is people that are performing these procedures like
  tattoo artists and make up artists surely there has got to be a big risk in
  doing it this way. as once said here this is your face it is not like a block
  of wood you can throw out if it makes it worse
 

  skin needling, people attacking PK -- Spaniard, 22:43:34 01/13/03 Mon

  First of all, I am the one who PK was referring to as someone who she was in
  touch with and had similar disappointing results. 2nd of all I find it
  disgusting that people call PK a liar and question PK's credibility because
  she tries to warn people.

  Having said that, I had skin needling done by a plastic surgeon in Europe who
  learned the technique from Dr. Fernandes himself and is also a distributor of
  his Environ products.
  My experience: I have had a quite large scar needled and it seemed for a
  couple of weeks that it improved drastically. I followed all of plastic
  surgeon's advise regarding aftercare. However as time went by the scar
  reappeared. To make it worse the skin in that area is even more sensitive now
  then it was before. Now 4 months post surgery I can say that the scar hasn't
  changed at all. neither in texture nor in depth.

  As someone already pointed out, for some people it might work for some it
  might not. It is the same thing with subcision or with Erbium or C02. You hear
  both great success stories and horrible accounts of such procedures being
  total failures. I guess it has all to do with the nature of the scar, its
  depth, its location, whether it is mature etc

  And yes, there is little evidence so far on the net that skin needling does
  work for scars. It is mostly used for wrinkles. Just check all the sites that
  mention skin needling. It has also been reported on this board that a
  permanent make up artist was offering this for a while and now stopped because
  of mixed results. So there you go. PK and myself had disappointing results and
  some of you had good results. That's the reality.

  It is better to be a little bit more cautious than to believe that skin
  needling is the new messiah and having it done without thinking it through.

  So this is my side of the story. We are all in the same boat.
 

  Denise - Clarification -- John, 22:29:12 01/13/03 Mon

  Hi Denise, I would just like to clarify what i meant by saying scars were
  permanent. What i meant was that scars can be improved, and I have had many
  good results from my treatments but the scars are still and will always be
  there, even though their appearance has been reduced. Since they have improved
  I have found much more confidence.

  The point I was trying to make though was that not for people to get their
  hopes up. Also please to anyone see a fully board associated Plastic surgeon.
  Traetments I have done with dertamtoligists, or "miracle cure" cosmetic
  surgeons, for me have done nothing. I have from a plastic surgeon, though had
  good results. He himself bags out all these other methods. He told me four
  years ago that the Laser was a wate of time and in my view he has proven to be
  correct.

  I am only saying this to all of you not to hurt you but to help you based on
  my own experiences
 

  Gertrude -- Pat, 20:10:07 01/13/03 Mon

  Thanks for getting back to us, you said to drop you a mail-what is your
  address?

   Everyone...let's be fair -- Denise1, 19:20:53 01/13/03 Mon

  1. I don't believe that scars are "permanent", with no recourse or chance of
  treating successfully.

  2. I truly think that PK was just letting people know his/her experience.
  Though I disagree with PK on one or two points, the one being this. Dr.
  Camirand, I believe, was referring to the fact that the procedure was
  experiemental on ACNE SCARS. The websites speaking of this technique talk
  about it working on lines and wrinkles, with no mention of treating acne scars
  at all.

  3. I don't know about PK's previous treatments or what PK's skin is like;
  could be overly sensitive, could have had other treatments that thinned the
  skin too much, maybe would have had better success in aftercare with a copper
  peptide product. PK may have scars that are too deep to treat well with this
  procedure, I DON'T KNOW!

  4. I've heard of way too many success stories with needling to dismiss it as
  some kind of fad or whatever. It may work for some, not for others.

  5. I hate it when the board turns into bickering.

  This isn't directed at any one person at all. I believe that everyone is just
  trying to make their points with credibility, facts, and personal experience.
  I know when I was being attacked by a rather immature psychopath, I was quite
  shocked that the "moderators" didn't remove the posts or ban the offending
  parties. And what cracked me up about when I was being attacked by the psycho
  was that they said I was a psycho who was "jealous". I was rofl
  thinking..."JEALOUS OF WHAT? SOMEONE ELSE'S ACNE SCARS?!" hehe.

  Anyway, I truly think that PK was just trying to perhaps make the case for
  spot treatment, and was just telling his/her story. I mean, I think about the
  poor souls who have recently posted about bad subcision results. Man, that
  STINKS! But that doesn't mean that subcision doesn't work for anyone.

  O.K.....deeeeeeeeeeep breathe. Let's try to just hear people out and respond
  with grace and charity.

  Cheers everyone, and ~peace~
 

  Isolagen -- MG, 16:55:10 01/13/03 Mon

  The web site for Isolagen is: www.isolagen.com

   Isolagen -- MG, 16:52:25 01/13/03 Mon

  Is there anyone from England or Australia on this board.
  If so, has any of you tried or heard of Isolagen. Does it work? I live in the
  U.S. I talked to an Isolagen rep who said that it should be available in the
  U.S. in mid 2003. I am planning to try it for my acne scars on my cheeks and
  temples.
 

  IPL/CT -- Getrude, 16:21:31 01/13/03 Mon

  Dear Sarah and Pat,
  Sorry for late reply. I had deep scars before using all the products. What
  obagi did is to clear the skin but as u are cleared, somehow your scars seem
  so much deeper.

  I started using skin biology products in Aug last year and went for IPL/CT in
  Oct. I use exfo cream and tri-reduction. Frankly this stuff on copper really
  works. '

  Do drop me a fail and hear from soon
 

  JOHN H _ DOCTOR REFERAL -- sarah, 12:46:13 01/13/03 Mon

  John:

  Please help - I am in the EU with the same type of scarring. can you please
  tell me who did your laser and in which country?

  Thanks
  Sarah
  London
 

  oh no -- jack, 08:26:21 01/13/03 Mon

  oh no! i was being stupid and picking at a zit, broke the skin, and now
  there's a hole there. if you look at it from the side, you can definitely see
  a hole going in. it's still raw so there's some liquid filling into it.

  is there anything i can do lessen the chances of it turning into an ice pick
  scar? i feel so stupid for picking at it. i never learn!
 

  Horrah for John -- Felix, 04:46:32 01/13/03 Mon

  I agree with what John just wrote, and I guess that were not the only ones who
  agree with what PK is saying here. I haven't posted in a while and came on to
  see whats new and read all these messages. Someone was saying that PKs tone
  was bad, but when reading her first messge, she seemed to me to be sharing
  what had hapened with her and if it really can make her scars even worse, she
  wanted to warn others. You bet I want to know about stuff like this before
  trying something like that then. Then others start to jump on her saying that
  maybe she did it herself (no) or maybe not good enough aftercare (no) and
  finally, one guy says that shes lying. I dont blame her for being offend! what
  kind of respose is that to someone trying to help others? read her message
  shes saying best of luck to everyone and to be careful.

  John says a good point, where are all the photos for needling if its so good?
  and if the doctor who made this up cant say anyting more good about it that
  sure seems fishy to me.

  i'm going to try maybe erbium laser or a microdermabrasion but definiely not
  going to do needling until someone can show me some photos and stop blaming
  people who are trying to save the rest of us some money or heartache! im not
  saying needling doesnt work for some people and that is what PK said in
  several messaegs as well. lets just not attack people who have something to
  say.
 

  In defense of PK -- John, 01:44:51 01/13/03 Mon

  Listen this is a terrible problem that effects everyone on this site but I
  honestly believe there is nothing that can really help with scar revision, i
  should know, I have had two dermabrasions and CO2 laser. I believe that
  sometimes people want so badly to believe that their scars have improved that
  they actually believe they have when in actual fact they have not. But you
  have to be honest and look under the worst light possible to see this.
  Therefore, in my opinion, i can see what PK is tryng to say is don't count
  your hopes on any scar revision , as if your scars are serious you are only
  going to be disapointed.Also if this Neddling is so good why will someone not
  post pictures, I know if I had discovered something that was so great I would
  be so deliously happy I would want to show everybody, to help them

  In my opinion and from my experience the best solution is a filler, for those
  who have tried Collagen will know this works well but it is only temporary. I
  then had Silicone inserted which provided the same results as Collagen which
  were permanent, very effective for deep scarring, what I would call real
  scarring. I must say though, that in my opinion some people are overreacting
  to their scars, i saw the pictures of that guy who had the laser done and to
  me he never had a problem in the first place and I suspect those with seriour
  scars, are the ones not getting good results no matter what treatment they are
  using and one therfore has to accept that unless there is a significant
  technological breakthrough one is stuck with them.

  I would also like to add though that I believe scarring is a physcological
  problem. If you think that acne scarring is affecting you achieveing things in
  your life, this is the wrong attitude. I have never had any problems in having
  a relationship despite my scars, with attractive girls and some girls have
  actually said they add character, one girl I went out with for a year did not
  even ask me where I got them from. Therefore dont let them upset to the point
  of becoming obsessed about them as you may find that it is you that is more
  concerned about them than anyone else. I know this sounds easier than it
seems!
 

  PK -- Karen, 01:19:09 01/13/03 Mon

  PK,

  I think that you are getting a little worked up over this for no reason, we
  are all after the same thing, here. Of course this is still an experimental
  procedure. Of course it would be very smart to do a test patch first. I think
  that some people are getting upset because of the tone that you took, and
  because you seem to be trying to make a procedure that has been very helpful
  to us and others seem worthless, which it is not. Apparently, it is not
  helpful for EVERYONE. That is not at all surprising, I have not read about one
  single scar treatment that helped EVERYONE. It is sad that it did not help
  you, I am sorry for that. But the fact is that on this board and others we
  have more people who have been very happy with their results than people who
  have been unhappy with their results. The one scar that I had done 3 months
  ago is looking MUCH better than it used to. From this board, Happy Needler,
  myself, Tom, and Marc have all been very pleased, MONTHS after we did the
  procedure. We are just offering encouraging information on something that has
  improved our skin pretty drastically. Also, I would like to add that the woman
  who sent you that email said that her scar was very deep, and she suspected
  that was why the needling did not work. I, myself, have admitted that the
  deepest scars saw little improvement, so that email is not at all surprising
  to me. In fact, it confirms what I have seen for myself, and is not so
  different from what you would expect from any resurfacing procedure.

  Also, I think it is unfair for you to classify people (and I am guessing
  myself) as 'wed to certain techniques, even in spite of other's poor results.'
  Nobody here is married to anything, we are just happy with the results that we
  have seen from this technique and think it could be very helpful to others
  here. Our time is very valuable, as well, and we are not here to harm any
  souls. You find any scar reduction technique, and you will have people who
  have had bad experiences with it. Would you classify anybody who is happy with
  their results on anything as 'wed to a certain technique, even in spite of
  other's poor results?' If that is the case, then I would have to classify
  yourself as one who is soured to a certain technique, even in spite of other's
  wonderful results. Of the people who have posted here, we have seen more who
  have been happy with their procedures (even months after they had it done)
  than people who have not been happy with their procedures. The only poster who
  has reported poor results on this board is yourself. Marc, Tom, Happy Needler,
  and myself have all been very happy, months after the procedure. After the
  swelling had gone down. I am not sure about Kim, I have not heard from her in
  a while. That is just on this board, I have read posts from people on other
  boards who were happy after months, too.

  I can tell from your first posts that you are very frustrated by your
  scarring... I am very sorry and really hope that you find a resolution. That's
  all I want for everyone on this board, they are horrible things to suffer.

  Now, "suspect claims" rolling in from others..... -- PK, 00:09:09 01/13/03 Mon

  OH, I couldn't resist:

  Gosh, Brandon, just saw a post from "Anna", wherein she reports the following
  input from André Camirand, MD, the very doctor who developed the needling
  technique you ardently defend:

  "Thank you very much for your e-mail dated November 10, 2002.
  Unfortunately, it is too early to say. This is still an experimental
technique.

  Sincerely yours,

  André Camirand, MD"

  So, THIS is all he can say in response to her questions about the
  effectiveness and specifics of needling? You've got to be kidding! From the
  FOUNDER championing this technique...."too early to say...still an
  experimental technique." ?????????????

  So Brandon, are you now going to hunt down Dr. Camirand and write posts
  accusing him of "Suspect claims"? How about Anna? Is she also part of the
  apparent Anti-needling ferver sweeping this forum?

  Get a grip, Brandon. WHEN THE FOUNDER AND CHAMPION, HIMSELF, OF THIS VERY
  TECHNIQUE CALLS IT EXPERIMENTAL AND CAN OFFER NO VIABLE ANSWERS TO A PATIENT'S
  LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS, YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO BASIS FOR YOUR ACCUSATORY ATTACKS
  ON A POSTER WHO SIMPLY POSTED HER UNSATISFACTORY RESULTS.

  The facts speak for themselves. Or are Anna and Dr. Camirand also creating
  "suspect claims", all for the sinister motive of "undermining",as you called
  it, the hopes and dreams of other future needlers.... What a joke.

  Glad it has worked for you and others. It hasn't for me and others. End of
  story. Don't attack those who post something other than perfect results for
  the benefit of others.
 

  Final response from PK -- PK, 23:40:07 01/12/03 Sun

  My, my. Such acrid accusations, thank you, "Brandon". SO, my claims are now
  "suspect?" Let me explain something: as an attorney who bills at 375 per hour,
  maybe it's a bit hard to comprehend, but my time is valuable, and no, I'm not
  going to waste even more of my time in trying to read thru the myriad past
  archived posts to find those who had at first reported good needling results,
  and then when later contacted (either on this forum or other boards), reported
  different results. AND, for the record, that is not accusing others of being
  dishonest, as you accuse: it reports that results differ and at times, given
  more healing time, the initial results were better than later reported.

  Because I remembered the name of the person who initially reported (to me, at
  least) a 100% improvement, and then when later contacted, reported about 5%,
  and am copying her last message to me below. Something else we understand in
  law, Brandon: there are issues of confidentiality, privacy and liability which
  preclude citing other's names unless specifically and in writing approved by
  that party. So, of course I'm not going to be citing names left and right.
  That's just basic Contract Law 101. The posters were both on this forum and
  acne.org.

  How utterly pathetic that others, such as you, Brandon, become so critical and
  accusatory when others post anything other than positive results. DO you think
  that this is what I WANTED, no results? And what possible motive would anyone
  have for posting anything OTHER than their own, subjective experience? In law
  we understand that there must be a motive proven for any such questionable
  act, such as you ascribe (PK's claims are "suspect"?...) yet, quite obviouly,
  any rational and UNBIASED person reading my intial post would understand that
  this is simply a scar sufferer posting her experiences for the benefit of
  others.

  AND any rational and unbiased person reading the copied email message below,
  will also surmise that needling is not uniformly effective for everyone,
  including her AND me.

  Why this is apparenly so difficult to understand and the subject of such
  hostility from others, is quite amazing. As for me, I'm done with this forum
  and onto a productive use of my time: so much for having tried to help others.
  For those who can read something without bias, here is the copied email
  referenced above:

  I read your post on voy.com. And I must say that i was confronted with the
  same devastating news this summer when i went to a plastic surgeon who
  specializes in scar revision. The problem is that those doctors only use
  aggressive treatments and thus that's the only sollution they see..or in our
  case none.
  Having said that I am in the same fucked up situation. Though slightly
  different. In the end I gave up on needling because it didn't seem to do a
  damn thing. Maybe 5% improvement and that is ridiculous. I am guessing the
  reason for this, and that might be true in your case aswell, is that my scar
  is too deep.
  As I already told you before, I tried restylane to fill up the scar a couple
  of months ago. But it didn't do a thing. Well it was swollen for like 2weeks.
  First of all I think I don't react to well to restylane and that was done way
  too early. my scar was still not soft enough to be elevated. I went to see
  another doctor a week ago. He told me to wait a couple of months and then
  either fill it up with fat and dermabrade it slightly or excise it and stitch
  it up so that in the end it will be a relatively small excision scar, which
  shouldn't be indented. I know both sollutions don't sound too good. Especially
  since your scar resulted from dermabrasion. But hear me out....mine resulted
  from Erbium. So there you go. I had a relatively small scar from an excision,
  that was uneven in texture because it wasn't done right and because i took
  accutane, although I never really had acne.....go me!! However the Erbium
  laser went too deep, which left me with a wide hole in my nose.
 

   PK, your claims are very suspect -- Brandon, 23:08:59 01/12/03 Sun

  PK, in your first post, you claimed that you had spoken to "several" people
  from this board who had been needled and that "they" told you it hadn't worked
  as well as they thought. When pressed to explain who all these people were,
  you have now reduced it to one woman, a woman you refuse to name. If she
  posted here, why not use her screen name? In fact, there was no such woman on
  this board, I have read all the needling posts and have never seen anyone
  claim 100% improvement.

  It is very unfair of you to undermine people who are posting their successes
  here, acting like they are somehow not representing the truth of their
  experiences. It is even more unfair of you to call them "defensive" after you
  have behaved in such a manner.

  I'm very sorry that none of the things you have tried have given you the
  results you desire, but please refrain from undermining others for whom some
  of these things are working very well. It's perfectly acceptable for you to
  post what things have failed you, we DO need to hear both sides of the story.
  But please refrain from implictations that others are not being honest about
  the results they have seen. If you truly believe this board should be balanced
  with both sides of the story, you must allow the successful people to post
  unmolested!

  And if it were up to John H., I guess we would just shut this board down and
  all get erubium, LOL!
 

  Needling -- Anna, 23:07:56 01/12/03 Sun

  In defense of PK, I feel I have to share something. When I was looking into
  needling I E-mailed Dr. Lazarus who referred me to Dr. Camirand. I think we
  need to remember that needling is an experimental procedure and everyone's
  skin is different. Please see the below response.
  _____________________________________________
  Dear Anna,

  Thank you very much for your e-mail dated November 10, 2002.
  Unfortunately, it is too early to say. This is still an experimental
technique.

  Sincerely yours,

  André Camirand, MD

  __________________________________________________________
  > Hello Dr. Camirand,
  > I am a patient suffering from depressed scar on my nose from an injury. I
  contacted Dr. Lazarus and he suggested I contact you. I am trying to obtain a
  technique manual for a local tattoo artist who works through a plastic
  surgeon's office who is willing to try this technique on me. A few questions
  which have arisen are:
  > 1. Is this a good technique for depressed scars or more for keloid like
  lesions?

  > 2. When needling does the practioner needle only the scar or, in this case
  needle the entire cosmetic unit, the nose?
  >
  > Is there a good treatment guide available for the practioner?
  >
  > Thank you so much for your time!
  >
  > Sincerely,
  > Anna
 

  To Denise from PK -- PK, 22:29:06 01/12/03 Sun

  Denise, thank you for your message. Having read extensively about needling
  before having it done, and seeing a trained professional, we both knew all
  about keeping it moist afterwards. Kept medicated vaseline products AND
  VItamin A creams on it for more than a MONTH. Looked like a freak, but did so,
  all to no avail.

  AFter a month, kept Vitamin A on and less greasy type of vaseline, and on top
  of all, used sun screens extensively (40 SPF)

  Yeah, unfortuntaly, the practitioner and I did everything right. This
  technique simply isn't everything it's cracked up to be, according to a number
  of others, INCLUDING past patients of this needling expert. Hard to debate
  that.

  Thanks for your reply.
 

   A question for PK -- Denise1, 21:52:47 01/12/03 Sun

  PK, I was wondering what type of ointment you used after your needling. Did
  you keep the needled area moist, or no? I know I've read that the aftercare
  will determine what kind of result you have. That guy who posts under "Yumi"
  on another board says that after his first needling experience, he didn't care
  for it properly and didn't have near the result he did after his second
  needling. According to Yumi, the moister you keep the area, the better result.

  I was thinking that if you had severe red marks, maybe you weren't given good
  information about aftercare.

  Just thinking out loud here as to why you had red marks and worse
  scars.......that would be very disappointing, I would think.
 

  TO BOB from PK -- PK, 21:39:55 01/12/03 Sun

  Bob, I very much appreciate the time and effort invested in spelling out your
  vitamin and health regime. I will study closely what you've said, and if
  there's anything which I can use to agument my already-optimum regime, I'll
  certainly do so. Guess that Pickart himself told me that, after 4 months, that
  it hadn't worked, that pretty much ended my attempts with CP. But thank you
  again.

  I'm delighted for you in your successful results. That's terrific.

  PK again -- PK, 21:35:10 01/12/03 Sun

  GOsh, in re-reading the former post questioning my input regarding needling,
  I'm a little surprised that someone can tell ME, just what MY experience has
  been with needling:

  "It would seem that you did it to yourself, especially since you report
  "months of red spots." As I have said before, there is no way you can
  duplicate, by hand, the precision in coverage and depth of a tattoo gun. And
  there are no red spots that last for months when you have it professionaly
  done."

  Oh, really? Given that I paid more than a hundred dollars, and drove more than
  an hour's time to consult with a trained, professional permanent makeup artist
  who TEACHES these techniques for a living (hardly "Doing this myself"), AND
  ended up with red spots which have lasted for months AND scars worse off than
  before, I just find it incredulous that someone completely ignorant of my
  situation would be telling me just what "my" situation supposedly is. Please!

  Those espousing certain techniques for scar revision shouldn't become
  defensive when others share experiences other than their own. What possible
  "motive" would I have, but to inform and advise others regarding treatment
  options, given my own personal experiences AND the admissions of the very
  people (doctors, past posters, etc.) who THEMSELVES admit that these
  techniques are a mixed bag in terms of results. Trust me, I have far better
  things to do that spend my time writing posts for the benefit of others, with
  the only hope of helping others make INFORMED and balanced decisions re scar
  revision methods....

  That's it from me. Hope that my efforts have done something other than offend
  those defensively wed to certain techniques, even in spite of other's poor
  results.
 

  PK anwering questions -- PK, 21:18:19 01/12/03 Sun

  I'll try to answer the questions posted, may miss some:

  First, NO, I did not and would never attempt to do self-needling on my face.
  Paid a licensed professional permanent makeup artist who ALSO had experience
  with needling for scars. SHE herself, admitted that the past results were "
  mixed". I can't recall those who wrote at one time touting results, then wrote
  later, or to whom I spoke later saying that is wasn't all it was hoped to be,
  but one woman in particular, who emailed me individually at first reported
  "100 %" reversal, then upon contactign her again later, said it hadn't worked
  at all. She was a very nice person, trying to help me, I'm not going to give
  her name out over this forum, but suffice it to say that this has been my
  experience.

  IN regards to CP products and my overall health: I am 4o years old, am in
  optimum health, have studied nutrition extensively, take daily supplements and
  eat a high-protien, yet balanced diet and work out with my trainer 4 times a
  week. Wish I could attribute CP products not working to something in my diet,
  but I know that's not the case.

  I appreciate everyone's input: no need for anyone to be upset by what I've
  reported: given the fact that BOTH Dr. Pickart AND the permanent makeup artist
  advised me that patients received mixed results (read: it doesn't work for
  many), what I am reporting is obvioulsy not an isolated experience.
 

   CZ32 -- Denise1, 20:44:31 01/12/03 Sun

  I had been using The New You up until about a month ago when I had to start
  "prepping" my skin for my TCA peel. I had been using it for a good 5-6 months
  straight up until then. I enjoy the product. It's a great "peel" without all
  of the side effects of an acid peel.

  Does it remove scars? I have no clue. I don't think I used it long enough to
  know for certain. Plus, with all of the other things I've done, it's hard to
  tell for certain. But overall I like the product and found that it smooths and
  tones the skin and gives it clarity and removes dead skin cells just as well
  as an acid peel. I like it very much.

  That's really all I can say about it.
 

  PK -- bob, 20:21:42 01/12/03 Sun

  I've been using the tri-reduction combo package(mine contains the copper
  peptide and retinol in one bottle and the 2% salicylic acid (exfol cream) in
  the other bottle. After 8 days of using the combo I'm seeing something
  occurring. The depressed and pitted scars are getting a pinkish hue and I
  believe are not looking quite as deep. They are still very much there so I'll
  have to report later if things are going as positive as they seem to be. The
  main reason why I'm writing this is because I was trying to figure out why you
  might not respond to anything. It seems almost as though your body just isn't
  putting the collagen in there for your treated scars. Do you take vitamin
  supplements? I'm not talkng about the weak one a day stuff; but rather
  something very strong from a vitamin/herb store. Perhaps a superstrong vitamin
  regimine would be worth a try when you are doing treatment. Of course you need
  to research herbs before you take them. Most are quite safe. For instance,
  most people can take ginseng but some can't. I am one of those that can't. It
  makes my heart speed up too much. And there is a limit on how much to take in
  some vitamins. Unless a person knows a lot it can be best to buy everything
  that's in one bottle and just contains vitamins and no herbs and is really
  strong. It's just a thought as to what could possibly help you respond to
  treatments. I take some strong supplements and never get colds or flu anymore
  since I started taking them 16 years ago. I'm 46 now and up until I was 30 I
  was getting a severe cold every year and the flu every year without exception.
  I think the 1000mg of vitamin c a day is responsible for that protection.
  Anyway, I am responding in some way to this tri-reduction combo and though
  it's too early to be quite sure, I think it's positive. I can feel a lot of
  sensation occurring within the scars especially after I put the copper
  peptide(mine contains retinol mixed with the copper peptide)on. I don't feel
  as quite as much sensation from the 2% salicylic acid. THe skin biology site
  says that if improvement seems slow to move up to a stronger acid like the 30%
  glyoric acid which is about 3 times as strong as the salicylic acid. Did you
  try that?
 

  Answers to all -- John H., 19:40:49 01/12/03 Sun

  Mikey: yes i had i VERY positive experience. Its now 7 weeks after the surgery
  and final results are not yet obtainable but i can judge where things go. Some
  detaols you can find on 2 previous posts (use the find tool of browser using
  my name to find them). My main problem is ice- pick scarring not very deep and
  small dimaterer, but many. You must know that the type of scarring DOESNT
  matter. Only the depth matters in resurfacing.

  Ken: your first step should be resurfacing. Dont bother with filling yet. Also
  "cut and stitch surgery" is not very good for you as the scars are many.
  "Unfortunately" only aggresive surgery will yiel benefits.

  JB: the remodeling/maturation is the last phase of wound healing. It initiates
  at about 21 days after wounding and lasts about 12 months. Some give 18 months
  or even 24 months. theoretically your organism will try forever to fix the
  scar but practically things fade out after 2 years. The more close you are in
  the event the more intense the remodeling is ofcourse.If the initial
  improvement is A say 50% from the "shaving" then the remodeling will give
  another 15-30% more improvement-this is practical.

  Maria: Im not any kind of expeption. But do you know many with no problems
  coming to these boards? These forums are magnyfying the negative side. My
  scarring is moderate.

  Did i missed someone. sorry if i did.

  Some general considerations you must all keep in mind:
  Scar revision is either surgical or with topicals.

  TOPICALS:
  The only ingredients clinically proven to help scarring are Tretinoin and
  Adapalene (forms of Vitamin-A). All the other are simply Bullshit. There are
  many things however to help you skin in general and by this viewpoint when you
  keep a balanced environment on your skin you allow it to function and heal
  better. These include antioxidants, exfoliants, moisturizers, sunscreens,
  cleansers, toners. Complete analysis of the above is not possible here. It is
  good to use these products but dont wait to do things for your scars really.
  Many here could say the opposite but the truth is the above. I could say many
  more but i dont have the time.

  SURGERY:
  There are 3 main types currently: Resurfacing,filling,cut and stitch surgery.

  1. Filling (replacing lost volume). Thermal, Mechanical, Substances.

  1a. Thermal: Cooltouch,Smoothbeam,Nlite.
  You thermally injure only the dermis so by triggering the automatic wound
  healing response the resulting scar (dermal) will give a natural augmentation.
  (nlite hits blood vessels instead). These are a natural filler by
  scarification.

  1b. Mechanical: Subcision.
  Here again you scar the dermis by a mechanical way this time (with the
  needle). One extra benefit of this method is the known by all cutting of the
  fibrotic attachments.

  1c: Substances : This category includes too many products and methods. The
  optimal filler is yet unavailable. Isolagen is not an effective solution cause
  the collagen must be produced by your organism in order to stay. Fat
  transplant seems to be the most promising method so far. I ll not discuss
  these more.

  --comments: Here you start with "natural ways" eg subcision, cooltouch etc and
  if the pit is very deep you then add a substance.

  2. "cut and stitch" surgery. Excision, Punch elevation/release/grafting.

  Mainly for individual defects altough serial techniques can be possible.

  Excision: cut and discard the defect.suture the hole.

  Punch release: This is for small in diameter defects (ice-picks, small pits).
  These defects have also fibrotic attachments to their sides. By inserting a
  punch around the defect you release the attachments and allow the defect to
  contract (2-6 months) No ring scar remains.

  Punch elevation. Performed simultaneously with the release for the same
  defects cuts the attachments below (like subcision) allowing to elevate.

  Punch grafting: If the bottom of the scar is not like the surrounding healthy
  tissue elevation will not create an optimal result. So here we have a small
  skin transplantation.

  3. Resurfacing - chemical,mechanical,laser.

  Chemical:
  superficial: mainly glycolic acid
  medium: mainly TCA
  deep: mainly phenol. Some newer versions with buffers exist (like exoderm) but
  the have all the pros and cons of a phenol peel- simply they are phenol peels.

  Mechanical.
  Dermabrasion the most popular. Diamond fraise (for beginners mainly), Wire
  brush (the best, only for experienced cause have dangers), Serrated wheel (old
  technique). Since dermabrasion causes blood microdroplets in the air with the
  spread of HIV some doctors turned to dermasanding with sandpaper. The negative
  of this is that abrasion deeper than the reticular dermis is not possible
  since blood wets the sandpaper. further abrasion many times is then made by
  applying a peel directly. Other mechanical: using the dermatome or the
  scalpel. Dermabrasion is the best.

  Lasers:
  Co2 and Erbium. Difference is what i wrote in a previous post. You can reach
  the same depth with Erbium as with Co2 if you want and so you ll have the same
  results.

  Comments: As i wrote earlier and some narrow-headed (sorry) cant understand is
  that all methods of resurfacing are the same thing. All that matters is how
  deep you go. By going deeper and deeper you discard more and more "damaged"
  layers. Its that simple. You dont need to go to Israel (HA HA) to loose some
  dermal layers!!!!! The key is to go deep enough to have visible results but
  not too deep to allow the remaining skin to provide a beautiful healing. Any
  textural alteration mean that the healing wasnt optimal and practically this
  is scarring. Resurfacing is one of the most simple, smart, and effective
  methods (or the most) that exist today. You dont have to wait for future
  methods. Also exept for very deep resurfacing (to the middle reticular dermis)
  your skin will not thin.(and this was something i didnt know last year!).
  Needling of course is not resurfacing. It falls in the first category of
  mechanical volume replacing. Ok you also "irritate" the scar with the needle
  but you cant "irritate" it as with a laser or a dermabrader. Too many ignorant
  people however think that they discovered a miracle. HA HA HA. I checked
  another board and what they are all about is needling!! Are they crazy or what
  the fuck????
  With resurfacing you do 2 things:

  1. Sanding down the skin. By this you get rid of some superficial scars and
  the ugly defined edges of the deeper scars (if there are any defined edges).
  Also you reduce the depth of the deeper scars and practically you blend the
  undamaged surrounding skin with the damaged. So if you have any scars like
  ice-picks you will see great benefits (DESPITE THE CONTRARY BELIEF). This is
  the initial A improvement i was reffering to.

  2. Rewounding the scars themselves. By doing this you give a second oppotunity
  to the scars to heal better (by elevating/filling in) along with the blending.
  This is gradual and it depends on the remodeling of collagen. This is the A/3
  to A/2 improvement i was reffering to. This is how it happens. By day 7-8 you
  must see a filling of the whole area (not by the swelling of course) this is
  new collagen that came in the site. By day 21 remodeling starts. What that
  means? You all know that almost every cell have a life cycle. This is the case
  with collagen also. When collagen metabolism starts (destruction and
  formation) at 3 weeks the new collagen that replaces the old becomes more
  cross-linked. (collagen connect to fibrils and fibers making this perfect mesh
  - like the cables of a suspension bridge). This is a slow process (the
  remodeling) but it never reach the quality of the natural skin (So the reduced
  tensile strength to 70-80% of the initial skin). Some here think that scar
  tissue is damaged tissue and must be replaced by healthy tissue and so on. HA
  HA HA. Scar forms in every case you are injured (expect if you are a fetus,
  then regenaration occurs). the more ugly the scar the more unorganized the
  collagen meshwork. You cant push the collagen metabolism by putting any
  topical (eg copper peptides HA HA HA HA). If you could do it you would disturb
  the equilibrium of collagen formation and destruction and you would make harm
  no good. Wound healing is a very complicated process and in most cases you
  want to leave nature make its job. I said it earlier: you only can rewound
  your skin.

  I dont know if you understood what i wrote above. I dont speak English very
  good. I live in the European Union. Its time to go back to my PhD now which i
  left behind. I found the solution to a problem i thought impossible to cure
  for years. I dont think i am any kind of exception. Good doctors exist who can
  help very much. The problem is how to find them. To this point i find myself
  very LUCKY.

  Ok i think thats enough. I dont know if post anything again so please dont ask
  any more questions. All i wanted to say is that there is actually hope to a
  very difficult problem.

  Bye,bye.
 

  PK, Denise1 -- Karen, 18:33:11 01/12/03 Sun

  PK,

  I agree very much with Happy Needler. I did a test spot, and I waited for just
  over 2 months after I did it to try it again, and my results got much better,
  certainly not worse. That happened just as Dr. Camirand, Dr. Lazarus, and Dr.
  Des Fernandes said it would. As I have mentioned a few times, I was actually
  disappointed with the results of the needling at first. My face was not
  swollen at all after 2 weeks - in fact, my scars looked virtually the same as
  before the needling. So it was not swollen, at all. It was only after some
  time that the filling in of the scars occurred.

  Furthermore, it does not make sense that this should not work for most people,
  if it is done right. Logically speaking, it just makes no sense to me. I think
  that most all of us here know that 3 things need to occur in order to get rid
  of a scar.

  1.) Break up the scar tissue
  2.) Reinjure the skin, so that a healing process will occur and collagen will
  be simulated.
  3.) When the skin is reinjured, give it a proper healing environment.

  Skin needling is a good way to accomplish all of these ends. This is a
  technique that is becoming somewhat popular with cosmetic artists, and from
  what I have heard, the ones who are doing it are getting a steady stream of
  business, and repeat business, at that. Some doctors use this as a standard
  practice for skin resurfacing, and I doubt very much that they would do this
  if is were ineffective. They report that they get repeat business, and that
  the results are better and better with each time. Although, this is a very new
  procedure, and that is why I had a test patch done, I was very pleased with my
  results. I do think that it wouldn't be a bad idea for anyone who had this
  done to get a test patch, if they can. Better safe than sorry, and it does do
  a bit to ease one's nerves for the full face procedure.

  I agree with Happy Needler, if you say that you have heard from people on this
  board saying the results were fleeting, we would like to know who so that we
  can talk with them ourselves regarding what you have told us they said.
  Between her and myself, we have the email addresses of all who have posted on
  this board about needling, so we can contact them that way. I am sorry that
  you have had a bad experience.

  Denise - hey, no problem! If you have any specific questions, or would like to
  talk about when and where you are going, shoot me an email!

  Karen:)
 

  Georgia Abrams M.D. -- Mayfield, 18:31:56 01/12/03 Sun

  I remember that a couple of people who used to post on this board had
  subcision done by Georgia Abrams who is located in Saratoga, CA. Both of you
  were happy with the initial results from the subcision. Are either of you
  around to post and let me know how the subcision areas are doing today? Did
  the improvement stay? Did you go back to be subcised by Dr. Abrams again?
  Thank you
 

  Happy Needler -- Beth-1, 17:57:35 01/12/03 Sun

  Thanks for the update on your needling progress. I am so glad to hear that
  your good results are long lasting--and hopefully permanent. Keep bringing us
  these periodic updates so that we know the long term results of your needling
  treatment(s). Beth-1
 

   PK - re. your remarks -- Happy Needler, 16:55:26 01/12/03 Sun

  Please clarify what you meant by "DId needling on chin area and after months
  of red spots where it was done, healed WORSE OFF than before." Did you do this
  needling on yourself, by hand, or was it done by a professional with a tattoo
  gun? It would seem that you did it to yourself, especially since you report
  "months of red spots." As I have said before, there is no way you can
  duplicate, by hand, the precision in coverage and depth of a tattoo gun. And
  there are no red spots that last for months when you have it professionaly
  done.

  Please also clarify this statement: "I had contacted several of those people
  who posted here OR who had emailed me individually about scarring, saying that
  it was some "miracle" cure for indented scars, AND when checking back in with
  them after a couple months, they sadly reported that the after the swelling
  had subsided completely, either the scar hadn't improved at all, or maybe 5%."
  Where these people who have posted here, namely Tom Adams, Marc, Kim, Karen or
  myself? I have been in contact with most of these people and they have not
  reported to me any loss of improvement. For myself, it has been two months
  since I had my first area, the chin, needled and I am still seeing
  improvements. None of my scars that went away have come back and others
  continue to fill in.
 

  To Eric from PK -- PK, 16:34:19 01/12/03 Sun

  Eric, thanks for your input regarding copper peptides and the Dr. Pickart, who
  created the Skin Biology products. During the time that I was using these
  products (more than 4 months), I called him personally and spoke with him
  about my "progress" or lack thereof. He confirmed that I was doing everything
  "right", using correct products (exfol serum followed by Tri Reduction Cream),
  etc. and eventually advised me that "well, sometimes this works for people,
  sometimes it doesn't. I don't 'know why." (that's an exact quote).

  I asked to see photos of patients - before and after- pretty routine fare for
  anyone touting acne revision qualities of their product: he said he didn't
  have any????????

  In any case, I've never said nor implied that Dr. Pickart is pushing a hoax -
  Elcina is an entirely different product and has nothing to do with Pickart.
  Pickart seems very knowledgable, but nonetheless told me that it seemed that
  it hadn't worked for me, no need to keep trying, that it sometimes works and
  sometimes doesn't, ANd no photos to boot. Pretty discouraging, but
  nonetheless, glad others have had success.
 

  Ken -- Scarface, 13:32:53 01/12/03 Sun

  Hi Ken,
  I had a look at your pictures.

  Look's like you've still got some active acne.

  Maybe you want to treat those first!

  Anyway, just to let you know. I've got deep scars on my cheeks! What a place
  to have them. Anyway, I'm going to do some excision on them..........

   Copper Peptides and Hydroxy Acid for Scar Removal -- Eric, 07:32:46 01/12/03
  Sun

  Hey guys-

  Looks like there is a lot of controversey going on about whether or not copper
  peptides really work for acne scars... OK, for people who haven't yet read Dr.
  Pickart's updated version on acne scars and copper peptides on
  www.scar-reduction.com, I want to show you all this posting from Delphi Forums
  by Dr. Pickart:

  "Dear E and All,

  You also need to use a hydroxy acid. You should use a hydroxy
  acid in the morning and CP Serum at night.

  1.I think any scar - even pitted scars - can be removed with
  hydroxy
  acids and copper peptides. The hydroxy acid slowly dissolves
  the scar tissue and the copper peptides help rebuild your skin
  and pull it smooth.
  2. But it is slow and may take 3 to 6 months.
  3, The creams work better than the serums but the creams
  may increases breakouts if these are a current problem.
  4. If the Skin Biology products do not work fast enough, then
  use a stronger hydroxy acid. Many people use 30% hydroxys
  and even up to 70% glycolic. But stronger acids can also burn,
  so have a professional help you.

  Loren Pickart"

  Couple of things here... one, this is not an overnight procedure and can take
  a while... three to six months is what I would truly wait and see before I
  expected improvement... I got very noticeable improvements within 3-4 months
  using just the Exfol Serum and TriReduction Creams... but no scar removal just
  yet. The key is PATIENCE! Second, as stated on www.scar-reduction.com, some
  people have more resilient scar tissue and this may require stronger hydroxy
  acids to get results. If this is the case, WAIT a while first, then, if you
  aren't comfortable with doing peels yourself or need help, visit an
  esthetician or dermatologist like Dr. Pickart recommends. I REALLY think you
  should check out www.scar-reduction.com and look at Acne Scar Reduction to see
  what Dr. Pickart's recommendations.

  As for Elicina, I don't know if this is a hoax or not, but Pickart is a
  respected biochemist who has created many clinically proven products on the
  market now. His research on copper peptides is extensive and he has received
  reports from customers about removal of scars, some of which are on his
  website. Pickart's products are based on solid research. This is strongly
  emphasized by the doctor, and there is no reason why he would need to spread
  false information about what his products can or can't do.

  Let's keep that in mind people... and remember, FAITH and PATIENCE are key
  here! Good things come to those who wait!!

  -Eric
 

   May -- CZ32, 07:13:33 01/12/03 Sun

  Hi,
  What happened when you used the salicyclic acid? I purchased Exfol and CP
  Serum and I believe that the Exfol Serum contains salicyclic acid. I think.
  Did you try the Exfol Serum? What is your skin type?

  Thanks kindly.
 

  PK on Copper pepties, needling, etc. -- PK, 07:08:55 01/12/03 Sun

  TO those who wrote recently: I have tried a number of techniques suggested on
  this board: copper pepties (Skin Biology strongest variety, along with strong
  glycolic acid before hand to "prepare" the scars), elcina, needling, etc.

  Hate to report this, but NONE of them worked. Period. Stayed on CP products
  for 4 months or more, not ANY change whatsoever.

  DId needling on chin area and after months of red spots where it was done,
  healed WORSE OFF than before. Made indented scars WORSE, deeper and larger.
  PLEASE anyone considering needling be aware that I had contacted several of
  those people who posted here OR who had emailed me individually about
  scarring, saying that it was some "miracle" cure for indented scars, AND when
  checking back in with them after a couple months, they sadly reported that the
  after the swelling had subsided completely, either the scar hadn't improved at
  all, or maybe 5%. Unfortunarly, they hadn't bothered to report back in after
  those results, so readers were still under teh impression that needling is a
  great option. Maybe it has worked for others, which is super. It didn't for
  me, and apparnelty others who had at first sounded encouraged.

  Elcina is a hoax, in my opinion.

  SOrry for the bad news, but I'm taking the time to write so that others are
  warned before spending their money and possibly (needling) doing more harm to
  their skin. Trust me, I wish that I had found something positive to report in
  on, I'm desparate to treat several indented scars on my face.

  Best of luck to everyone, hope this is helpful.
 

   Denise1 -- CZ32, 06:52:04 01/12/03 Sun

  Hi,
  I was just wondering about the New You System you mentioned you've been using.
  (LOL so many you's in that sentence) Anyway, how would you describe your
  results on your acne and scars after the 5 months? Also what skin type do you
  have?

  I'm waiting for my CP Serum to arrive but I'm always looking out for anything
  that has helped improved other sufferers.

  Thanks heaps in advance.
 

  Subcision results -- Cameron, 04:50:33 01/12/03 Sun

  leandro, my skin has not sunk back where I got the subcision done. It's been
  two months and so far it's still elevated (too much though). It's still red
  too and it still looks like scarred skin (not smooth). So basically, If 5 is
  zero result--no improvement, I'd rate this a 2 so far (worse than 5). I doubt
  that it's going to eventually beat a 5 on a scale of 1 to 10.
 

  To PK & Ken - indented scars and acne scars -- May, 02:18:24 01/12/03 Sun

  I have read various postings in other forums, strong copper petides did help
  with the scars. PK - it could take months for a sacr to fade. you could visit
  the skin biology web site to check out.www.skinbiology.com. I am using it for
  the indented hole that are caused by 2% salicyclic acid. For a few weeks, it
  had improved.(my scars are new). For older scars, u might need to use an
  exfoliant to speed it up.(but don't use salicyclic acid, it does not work for
  all people.)
 

  Punch Elevation -- Still dont get it, 00:57:28 01/12/03 Sun

  Still not understanding punch elevation, is this procedure just punching out
  skin thats depressed then suturing it to the raised skin? This doesnt sound
  like it would yeild good results, so basically there is a "void" area below
  the elevation? Seems like it would just fall back down after a while. Maybe I
  am not getting this correct?
 

  TO BJC re Excision -- Anna, 23:09:44 01/11/03 Sat

  I'm really not sure what kind of scar punch elevation is limited too.
  Although, I believe the examples I have seen mentioned in literature were
  roundish acne or pock scars.

  Excision is where they take an eye shaped punch to take out the scar. They
  then suture the opening and, as you said, create a linear line.

  Another technique is punch grafting where they punch out the scar and then
  take the same punch to obtain a graft (usually from behind the ear) and suture
  the graft into place.
 

   Thanks so much, Karen! -- Denise1, 22:14:10 01/11/03 Sat

  Yeah, when I mentioned people mentioning that the texture of their skin
  changing, everyone seemed to think it was for the better! So I meant that in a
  good way.

  Wow. This sounds excellent! I can't wait to get it done. If the woman in
  Northern Virginia doesn't do full face (I've read here on the board that some
  people don't do that), I'll go to your guy in Raleigh, as that is only about 2
  1/2 hours from me. I'm in Richmond, Va. All I'll do is jump on 85 south and
  I'll be there in no time.

  So glad you are enjoying the success of it. I'm really looking forward to
  this!:-)
 

   To Deek -- Karen, 22:13:47 01/11/03 Sat

  Hi Deek!

  Aw, you are sweet, thanks! Glad I could be of some help! I just had a local
  tattoo artist do it. I actually put together a nice email telling him a little
  about the procedure (included a short article, and some testimonials), and I
  sent it out to a couple of places around here that looked pretty reputable. I
  was lucky that he answered me back, his office was very nice, and he was
  really kind and did a very good job. I will definately go back to him!

  And, thanks for saying that, I hope my improvement continues, too! I hope that
  when you get your appointment you fair as well as I, and others, have! In my
  last post, I put up a link to the Procyte copper peptide ointment that Happy
  Needler and I used to heal, it was very good and sped up the healing process
  quite a lot. It was actually made for healing up laser surgery to promote
  collagen growth just after the surgery. Just scroll down, it should be there
  somewhere if you are interested!

  Karen:)
 

  KAREN - NEEDLING -- DEEK, 20:28:55 01/11/03 Sat

  Wow! What an inspiration you are. I'm definately calling a permanent makeup
  artist on Monday. Tell me, did you use a tatoo artist? Thanks for the info...I
  sure hope your improvement continues!
 

  ANNA Punch Elevation -- BJC, 19:55:28 01/11/03 Sat

  What kind of scar can punch elevation help?? Does the scar have to be a small
  round scar or can it be 1-3 mm long and about 1-3mm wide? If it would not help
  with this scar would excision help?? Is excision where they break up the scar
  and stitch it back up leaving a liner scar??
 

  Needling -- DaveB, 18:36:17 01/11/03 Sat

  It's been 16 days since I had my test spot done for needling done--an area
  about the size of a half dollar under my ear. I chose that spot for two
  reasons: because the area is pretty devoid of any collagen at all under the
  skin (that area used to break out a lot), and because if something went wrong,
  it wouldn't too noticable. Right now there is still some slight discoloration,
  but not much, and the area does feel at least a bit more filled in.

  So really this was just an experiment to see how my skin reacted, to see how
  much time I might need to take off work. I didn't expect any major results in
  a short time span--I seem to remember Dr. Fernandes of South Africa saying
  that full results wouldn't show for the better part of a year. Anyway, I will
  probably be getting the whole face done--scarred and unscarred--in about a
  month.

  Interestingly, though, my skin seems to looking much better these days anyway.
  I usually get collagen injections done every two months (not cheap!), but
  although I'm due for another treatment, the skin doesn't look so bad at all.
  Six months ago I received the last of my four Cool Touch treatments, and the
  doctor said that I wouldn't start seeing their real effects until about now.
  Hmmm.
 

   Denise - skin needling -- Karen, 17:16:32 01/11/03 Sat

  Hi all!

  Hey Denise! LOL, the scars are not GONE, but they are significantly improved!
  Almost all of them are looking quite a bit better, the deepest icepicks are
  the least improved. Some of the most shallow icepicks are pretty much gone -
  it is the icepicks that have responded the least, though. Sorry I took a while
  in getting back to yall, but the same thing happened as last time. When I
  first did it, I was disappointed with the results, so I held off on posting
  here to see if they would get better as they did last time. Sure enough, they
  have been getting better and better over the past month, and at this point I
  am very pleased with it! A few scars that I had that really bothered me are A
  LOT better, I have to really be looking for them to see them in the mirror,
  anymore!

  Yup, I had the FULL FACE done, I think most people who have had it done did
  the same thing. Scarred and non-scarred skin, I can tell you that it doesn't
  hurt the nonscarred skin to do it. If anything, I would say it is
  rejuvenating, and it gets rid of any red marks and most uneveness in color,
  too, It just peels right off! I am not sure what other people mean when they
  talk about the texture of the skin changing, but the skin is just a lot more
  smooth for me. I would say that this procedure works the best on rolling
  scars, but almost all have been helped to some extent - and I am expecting
  more improvement within the coming months. I think I am going to have it done
  again in March.

  I didn't feel like the full face was too much, at all, I think you would get
  really good results if you were to do it that way. I would do it the same way
  next time. Any more questions? I'd be happy to answer them!

  Good luck, everyone! Karen:)
 

  To BJC RE: Punch Elevation -- Anna, 16:51:37 01/11/03 Sat

  Hi BJC:
  No, punch elevation is not like subcision. Imagine a crater on the moon and
  then taking a cookie cutter with the same outline as the crater and punching
  the crater. Then you would lift and remove the cookie cutter so that the
  sunken part is flush with the rest of the moon surface and suture it into
  place in it's newly heightened position. This is punch elevation.

  Subcision is taking a cutting needle and cutting horizontally below the
  surface of the scar so that the skin fibers tethering the scar down are
  released. This procedure also causes a blood clot to form which helps prevent
  the scar from sinking down again. This is all done from a single needle entry
  point.
 

  Punch Elevation? -- BJC, 16:03:14 01/11/03 Sat

  Im wondering what exactly is punch elevation?? it sounds like subcision where
  they break the tissue up and the scar is suppose to rise to the top?? is this
  subcision or is it a diffrent procedure??
 

  excision -- HOPELESS, 15:12:40 01/11/03 Sat

  Could someone please give me deatils on what scar can be excised. In terms of
  the size of the scar?? does it have to be thin to be excised?? Can punch
  grafting work for a faily large scar or does it have to be a small scar??
  --HOPELESS
 

  indented scars -PK -- May, 10:34:24 01/11/03 Sat

  PK - you said you have tried copper petitdes, have you tried Skin Biology
  product? I've seen postings in other forums that it did help much. They have a
  stronger version of copper. But you know scars need time to fade. Please visit
  the Skin bio web site www.skinbiology.com
 

   hey CAMERON -- leandro, 06:39:43 01/11/03 Sat

  hey cameron please tell me about your subcision. So after 2 months you told us
  that the bump become red. Did you notice your scars sunk back?? I have read
  many post negative that after 3 weeks their scars have sunk back. So what did
  you experience?How could you rate tne # of % of your subcision results(raised
  above skin level)??
 

  filler -- BJC, 05:57:25 01/11/03 Sat

  Does anybody know if injectable filler can be used on the temple area?
 

   Also wondering about needling . . . -- M, 05:11:13 01/11/03 Sat

  So what's going on with you guys??? Where the scars raised? loosened? skin
  thickened? repigmented? depigmented? ... ?????????????????????????

  Planning this possibly sooner than later . . . and wanting hope for almost
  100% improvement(I feel like I'm at a good starting point from my last 18
  months of peels). I need to do all of the above except depigment
  (soften/raise/thicked/repigment).

  Fill us in.
  M
 

  Stretching Skin -- Cameron, 03:40:54 01/11/03 Sat

  In regards to my face lift posts, does the same principle apply however skin
  is stretched (that the scars will return within a couple weeks)? Using
  fillers? Also, has anyone gained a lot of weight in their face and noticed an
  improvement in their scarring?

  Finally, if anyone in the Denver area finds a good dermatologist, please email
  me. Thank you.

  Cameron - Subcision in Denver -- Tamara, 03:22:08 01/11/03 Sat

  Cameron, I am sorry to hear about your experience with Dr. Swinehart. :( He
  looked promising from the information on his website. I have consultations
  with 3 different Dermatologists this next month or so. I'll let you know if I
  find anyone that I think I can trust with my face.
  I guess I should ask folks here: Has anyone here seen: Dr. McCulloch, Dr.
  Bland or Dr. Cole in Colorado Springs for subcisions or any other procedures?
  If so, please post your experience here. Thanks ~Tamara
 

  Face lift - answer -- Cameron, 02:34:39 01/11/03 Sat

  Never mind. Here's the answer:

  FAQ:
  Will a facelift help my acne scars?
  Sorry, but a face lift will not help your acne scars, even though when you put
  your fingers on the skin just in front of your ears and pull your facial skin
  backwards, the acne scars seem to flatten as the skin tightens. It seems to
  make mechanical sense that the scars should flatten with the face lift
  operation, but it doesn't work out when you actually try it. The problem is
  that the face lift won't maintain tension on the surface of the skin, and the
  acne scars come back completely within just a couple of weeks after the face
  lift.
 

  Subcision - Dr Swinehart -- Cameron, 02:29:55 01/11/03 Sat

  Tamara, I live in Colorado, and I had a subsicion on a test spot done by Dr.
  Swinehart on Nov. 8 I believe. It was horribly swolen and blue for a few
  weeks, and now, two months, later, it's a red elevated bump. It has not worked
  at all for me. He seemed like a reasonable intelligent and sensitive doctor. I
  don't know if my skin is just wierd, or he messed up. Also, they told me I'd
  get a free consultation, and then all of a sudden after that, they kept
  bugging me for $75 until I finally paid them.
 

  Face lift? -- Cameron, 02:28:10 01/11/03 Sat

  Why don't we all just get face lifts? Are they that much more expensive than
  these other $4000 procedures? If I strech my skin, the problem goes away. It
  seems pretty simple.
 

   Karen, and other "needled" people....a couple of questions -- Denise1,
  22:49:39 01/10/03 Fri

  Yooooo hooooooooooo....where are you needled people?!

  We all want to know if your scars are gone, if the ice-picks are
  improved....etc....??????

  I also have a question. When I've read that people have their "whole face"
  done, does that mean that all the scars on the face have been done, or that
  the tatooing instrument goes over the face, row by row, until the full face is
  done? This would include non-scarred skin as well.

  I'm wondering about that because everyone always comments about the look and
  texture of their skin changing drastically. So I was wondering what "full
  face" means?

  Can someone please answer?!

  I'm planning on having this done in about a month and want to know how to go
  about this. I would love to have the full face done, row by row, to
  dramatically improve my skin, but didn't know if that's too much.

  Someone who's had this done please advise.

  Thanks!

  Tamara -- Tom, 20:07:42 01/10/03 Fri

  Let me know if you find a good doctor for subcision in the Springs. I live in
  Highlands Ranch and can drive there in no time. Thanks.
 

  To BC re Excision -- Anna, 18:34:13 01/10/03 Fri

  Hi BC,
  Excision is effective for icepicks.

  To ALL:
  Shouldn't Kit be back by now, I'm dying to hear about her Exoderm treatment!

  Anna
 

  To ping -- Jordan, 14:06:23 01/10/03 Fri

  Hi, thx for your info in smoothbeam. by the way, how is the cooltouch
  treatment? Hope you have good result. Does the colour of your skin look normal
  now, even without makeup? Take care and good luck.
 

  John H -- Maria, 11:12:10 01/10/03 Fri

  John,

  I just stated what a plastic surgeon told me. It is clear that I am not an
  expert. Then again you are the first person I have come across who has had
  great success with Erbium. How deep were your scars? Mine were quite shallow,
  maybe 2 deep ones and I had 0 improvement. So there you go. It might work for
  others, it certainly didn't work for me

  doctors in san fran area -- sarah, 10:39:09 01/10/03 Fri

  Hi: Can anyone please reccomend some good scars doc in the San Fran area. I
  live overseas and will be in San Fran and want to get a US opinion.

  Thanks
 

  Mickey -- JB, 10:34:07 01/10/03 Fri

  It doesn't seem like much. I see my Surgeon on the 15th and he took before
  photos so maybe we'll look them over and compare. All the before and after
  photos I've seen on the web from various Doctors seem to be 3 months "after"
  photos or later. I was told by my Surgeon it would take three months to see
  the final results. But I get the feeling that it won't be much to write home
  about, but then again I can always write to everyone here and it is cheaper
  than a therapist! LOL, JB
 

  John H. -- JB, 10:17:38 01/10/03 Fri

  John, How long long does remodelling take place? And could you please explain
  this statement to me: If the initial improvement is A expect some A/3 to A/2
  improvement from the maturation phase. One more and I do appreciate your time.
  How long is the maturation phase? Thank you, JB
 

  Maria -- JB, 09:54:00 01/10/03 Fri

  Maria, I agree with you. It seems our Erbium treatment wasn't very effective
  for us! But, As John H. said others might have better results. And then
  there's the ones we never hear from that has had resurfacing. I'm not giving
  up though. My surgeon said that if I wanted another one after 6 months or so
  he would charge me less than half the cost of the first one. But he also told
  me one should be all I needed. So it doesn't seem like he's trying to bend me
  over financially. One of the reasons I chose him was because if you look at
  him very closely you will see slight acne scarring on his face and if he knows
  your looking he will shift his face so you can get a better look. Whatever he
  had done was a really good job. So I felt a Chief Plastic Surgeon that
  suffered with acne scarring himself would be more understanding of the
  emotional impact a person goes through. I'm going on 5 weeks now and started
  to apply CP-SERUM. Sometimes I wonder if I had known about and used CP-SERUM
  post-op if my results would have been different. Anyway there really isn't
  much I can do at this point except keep up my regimen for now and then discuss
  the outcome and other options with him after 3 months. I don't know how long
  ago you have had your laser resurfacing but, John H. pointed out that your
  skin should look as if it was skinned by a razor, Some of my scars still look
  like that and when I applied the CP-SERUM my scars turned pinker than the rest
  of my face so maybe there might still be some improvement. I don't know for
  sure research is still being conducted...LOL, JB
 

  John H -- Ken, 07:52:20 01/10/03 Fri

  My Acne Scarring Photos Site Is:
  http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/newpride/lst?.dir=/My+Photo+Album&.src=ph&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/

  Dear John

  Thank you very much for your advice. Could you tell me your evaluation of my
  scarring? My skin is so rough and some scars are deep to dermis. As you saw my
  pictures, the the deep scars on both temples are deep to dermis and has turned
  white. Do you know any treatment that could make my epidermis of my deep scars
  regrow again?

  As for the rest of my scarring, do you think seeing Dr. Rapaport of New Jersy
  is first choice? So many people on this forum ever saw Dr. Rapaport and were
  so satisfied with the result.

  The combination of Subcision, Erbium and N-lite is though to be the best
  formula to treat acne scarring. As for CO2, it is too trouble and aggressive
  with unexpected risks. Therefore, Do you think my scarring is okey for this
  combination treatment and Dr. Rapaport is competent for me?
  (I think my epidermis are very thin that Aggressive Laser Surgery will make my
  face worse)

  Looking forward to your reply

  With Regards
  Ken
 

  excision-What kind of scar -- BC, 02:57:24 01/10/03 Fri

  What kind of scars can excision help?? can it help ice pick scars??
 

  Dr. Knize in Denver -- Tamara, 02:30:00 01/10/03 Fri

  Tom - thanks for the information.
  I have been doing research on Dr's lately and I saw someone who does subcision
  in Denver - Dr. James Swinehart. To my knowledge subcision is similar (though
  superior) to needling.

  I've made a few appointments for consultations in Colorado Springs with Dr's
  who perform subcision. I hope that I can find someone I trust and feel
  comfortable with. If anyone knows of a Dr. in Colorado Springs who is good at
  subcision, please let me know. Thanks! ~ Tamara
 

  lazer resurfacing photos -- RF, 02:04:53 01/10/03 Fri

  For you newcomers to the board, a guy has his photos posted from his lazer
  resurfacing surgery this past year. His web address has been posted before,
  but for those of you who haven't seen it, here it is.
  http://home.earthlink.net/~scarsupport/
 

  John H -- MIkey, 00:28:25 01/10/03 Fri

  John it sounds like you had a very good experience with erbium laser could you
  enlighten us with your experience with details and kind of scars you have??
 

  KEN -- John H., 23:35:52 01/09/03 Thu

  Ken my friend go for the erbium. Find an epxerienced doctor and do it. You
  will be satisfied if you do it right. Trust me. Your tortures will become a
  thing of the past. You will have more improvement than you ever imagined. You
  wouldnt even allow yourself to dream such improvement. Believe me I know.
 

  n -- John H., 23:06:47 01/09/03 Thu

  JB: The results must be obvious after about 10 days. What you must expect to
  see is something like a razor have passed and saved layers of your skin,
  depending of the depth of abrasion. At this new topography remodelling takes
  then place. If the initial improvement is A expect some A/3 to A/2 improvement
  from the maturation phase.

  Maria: Erbium targets at water about 15 times more than Co2 resulting in less
  thermal scattering to underlying tissue. Co2 causes a broader necrosis zone
  (>50 C) and also an instant tightening to other areas (<50 C). This
  contraction of the collagen gives the extra benefits, but it is not known if
  that effect is permanent. Collagen remodeling is an entirely different issue
  and it has nothing to do with what you say. It is only depended of how deep is
  the resulting wound. To say Erbium is useless makes harm to newcomers. At
  least say it was useless for you.

  I have a new face now. Dont imagine something like a softening of the scars or
  a better texture or bullshit like these. We are talking about scars here gyus,
  right?

  And also I red some of eric's letters. Dear eric my friend things are simpler
  than those things you search. If a scar have matured, ie if the remodeling
  phase is over there are not many things you can do. You have one and only
  option. To rewound your skin. The glycolic acid you put rewounds the skin in a
  very very very superficial way for the most of acne scars sufferers.
 

  Dr. Knize in Denver -- Tom, 22:47:50 01/09/03 Thu

  I live in the Denver area and saw the posts about Dr. Knize, who practices in
  Englewood which is a burb on Denver. I just got off the phone with his office,
  and they have never heard of the needling procedure.
 

  Maria erbium -- Mikey, 21:37:37 01/09/03 Thu

  Maria Im just wondering if there was ANY kind of improvement from the erbium
  laser treatment?? what kind of scars do u have?
 

  Gertrude -- Pat, 18:50:29 01/09/03 Thu

  Hi Gertrude, thanks for your post! I was wondering about the "holes" you
  mentioned. Were these caused by the obagi, the TNS or peptides? Its hard to
  tell from your post whether you had these holes before or after these
  products.
  How long after these products did you get the laser/IPL treatments, and how
  long after getting the treatments until you saw results? Would you say that
  your scars are 100% gone? Thanks for the clarification.
 

  Gertrude -- sarah, 13:45:27 01/09/03 Thu

  GREAT JOB! I was wondering how bad your scrars were? did you have any ice pick
  or box car? Also what is MDA? Which skin biology products did you use?

  Thanks
  Sarah
 

  JB -- Maria, 13:01:51 01/09/03 Thu

  JB,

  I am sorry to disappoint you but if you don't see any improvement after 4
  weeks there is little hope that it will get better. Unlike C02, Erbium is a
  "cool" laser therefore collagen growth is minimal. I've experienced the same
  thing. In the beginning it seemed alright and then the scars came back. I
  believe Erbium is pretty useless.

  Maria

  Getrude- IPL/ CT/ MDA -- AK, 11:55:45 01/09/03 Thu

  It is great to hear of your success story! I believe all of us on this board
  are on a journey of self discovery too...with a goal of improving those
  dreaded scars.

  I presume you must be living in Singapore coz you had mentioned Dr Martin
  Huang from MD Specialist. May I ask what kind of scars did you have (rolling,
  boxcar, icepick..mild or severe..& on which part of the face?)Also, how would
  you rate your percentage of improvement currently? Have your scars filled-in
  nicely or has it been mainly just an overall improvement of the facial tone &
  texture?

  I asked the above coz Dr Huang recommended the same procedures for me during
  my consultation with him. However, another Derm. proposed Subcision and
  Cooltouch. Thus, I'm really unsure which course of action to take? I believe
  Subcision is "more" invasive and involves longer downtime whilst Dr Huang's
  recommendation involves less downtime. However, I'm inclined to believe that
  you may have mild scarring thus may have benefitted from the non-invasive tx.
  I have mainly moderate rolling scars on my cheeks thus am unsure whether
  IPL/CT/MDA txs are too superficial for me. Also, I noticed that alot of rather
  positive feedback regarding Subcision have been given by many on this board.
  Any comments by anyone?

  Getrude, I would appreciate it if you could write to my personal email(as
  provided) to share more of your successful experience with Dr Huang's
  recommended Tx. Many thanks!
 

 

  JB-Erbium -- Mikey, 05:45:17 01/09/03 Thu

  I just wanted to say thank you for the information on your erbium laser
  treament. It looks like we are on the same boat I have the same kind of scars
  as yours boxcar, rolling and a few ice pick. Do you see any kind of improvment
  on your scars?? Stay strong, --Mikey
 

 

  acne scars -- matt, 03:52:50 01/09/03 Thu

  Has anyone had their acne scars worsen after a chemical peel(light,medium)

  Does anyone know if collagen injections work for scars in the temple area?
 

 

  Mickey -- JB, 03:34:35 01/09/03 Thu

  Mickey, I have moderate boxcar and rolling scars on my temples and cheeks.
  Some icepicks upperlip below my nose and on cheeks. Full face erbium laser
  treatment and it was aggressive. I have light skin and I was out of the sun
  two months before treatment. I bleached twice daily and used Retin-A daily
  before bedtime for 4 weeks prior to treatment. I was told to expect around 70%
  improvement, but it should take 3 months to see final results. Post-op I drank
  alot of fresh vegetable juice mixed with a high quality whey protein powder
  and vitamin supplements (JuiceLady I purchased on Amazon.com for $119.29
  delivered...Excellent price!) You can find the JuiceMan II used on Ebay or
  Amazon for a good price. I took 500mg of niacin twice a day to increase blood
  flow to my skin. I did not mega dose vitamins but, I broke the water
  solubles...B complex from rice and C from rosehips into smaller pieces and
  took them with the juice through out the day. I used a protein calculator I
  found on a whey protein website so I would know how much my body needed to
  heal. I was told I had a faster than expected recovery. Kaiser is starting to
  recommend whey protein powder to all of their cosmetic surgery patients. I had
  my treatment at Kaiser Permanente Hospitals Cosmetic Surgery Department in the
  S.F.Bay Area. Kaisers Chief Surgeon peformed the treatment. He suggested
  general anesthesia so he could be aggressive and go deep. Sounds good eh?
  That's why I was wondering what's taking so long for the results to show. It's
  been 5 weeks post-op. Finding this Forum has been a blessing to me, I wish I
  had found it before I had treatment. False promises? Broken dreams? Yes, I
  have experienced them too! For along time I felt I stood alone in a world
  where perfection is the key that opens many doors. Now I stand with many... I
  no longer have to stand alone. JB
 

 

  Mickey -- JB, 03:31:38 01/09/03 Thu

  Mickey, I have moderate boxcar and rolling scars on my temples and cheeks.
  Some icepicks upperlip below my nose and on cheeks. Full face erbium laser
  treatment and it was aggressive. I have light skin and I was out of the sun
  two months before treatment. I bleached twice daily and used Retin-A daily
  before bedtime for 4 weeks prior to treatment. I was told to expect around 70%
  improvement, but it should take 3 months to see final results. Post-op I drank
  alot of fresh vegetable juice mixed with a high quality whey protein powder
  and vitamin supplements (JuiceLady I purchased on Amazon.com for $119.29
  delivered...Excellent price!) You can find the JuiceMan II used on Ebay or
  Amazon for a good price. I took 500mg of niacin twice a day to increase blood
  flow to my skin. I did not mega dose vitamins but, I broke the water
  solubles...B complex from rice and C from rosehips into smaller pieces and
  took them with the juice through out the day. I used a protein calculator I
  found on a whey protein website so I would know how much my body needed to
  heal. I was told I had a faster than expected recovery. Kaiser is starting to
  recommend whey protein powder to all of their cosmetic surgery patients. I had
  my treatment at Kaiser Permanente Hospitals Cosmetic Surgery Department in the
  S.F.Bay Area. Kaisers Chief Surgeon peformed the treatment. He suggested
  general anesthesia so he could be aggressive and go deep. Sounds good eh?
  That's why I was wondering what's taking so long for the results to show. It's
  been 5 weeks post-op. Finding this Forum has been a blessing to me, I wish I
  had found it before I had treatment. False promises? Broken dreams? Yes, I
  have experienced them too! For along time I felt I stood alone in a world
  where perfection is the key that opens many doors. Now I stand with many... I
  no longer have to stand alone. JB
 

 

  JB-Erbium-Type of scars?? -- Mikey, 20:03:43 01/08/03 Wed

  JB i was just wondering what type of scars do have?? are they mild, moderate,
  deep, boxtype, ice pick, rolling?? Did u have a full face erbium treatment or
  just sections of your face. Last question what color is your skin, light,
  olive, dark??
 

 

   Photoes of my acne scarring have been posted on the net, My buddies could
  give me any help -- Ken, 17:18:13 01/08/03 Wed

  My acne scarring pics site is
  http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/newpride/lst?.dir=/My+Photo+Album&.src=ph&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/

  Ken
  25 years old
  Hong Kong

  My dear friends who also suffer the same nightmare,

  Several days ago, for a purpose to obtain the most reliable suggestion of what
  treatments (Lasers, Sub/Excision, etc.) suitable for and which dermatologists
  competent to deal with my condition, I bought a digital camera in order to let
  you our buddies see my conditions.

  My acne scarring were caused by misusing ance lotion and cleanser 7 years ago.
  My acnes at that time were too many that no doctors could prescribe any
  medicines to control its deterioration. However, by God's mercy, My father
  finally found a foreign dermatologist who knew accutane's existence and
  prescirbed it to me. Though the acnes on my face were cleared up rapidly, the
  nightmare of many acne scars coming to my face began.

  Day by day for many years, no friends, no love, isolation, loneliness,
  self-consciousness were the only tortures left with me. Still, I never gave up
  any way to get my scars removed. After highschool graduation I saw
  dermatologist who suggested me to use Obagi's peeling products. As obagi
  peeling products are not effective for moderate to severe acne scarring, there
  was just a bit of improvement I could saw.

  For four years of college life, praying My Christ for a day of getting my face
  treated and regaining my self-confidence, the day I wish to come.

  My good friends, I hope you could give me the most realible suggestions of
  what treatments most effective for me and which doctors most competent to deal
  with my case. I noticed just describing how bad my condition is is no any
  better than posting my pictures. So, the site to my acne scarring pictures is
  http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/newpride/lst?.dir=/My+Photo+Album&.src=ph&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/

  My friends, I look forward to your merciful suggestions.
  Please send me emails.

  In Christ
  Ken
 

 

  mike -- Lisa, 16:45:43 01/08/03 Wed

  Mike - Does cystic nodule go away on it's own? How long a go did you have
  subcision? Do you still have the bumps? Sorry for all the questions, but I
  really want to know what i can do to get these bumps off my face.

  ATTN: Lisa -- Karl, 03:37:50 01/08/03 Wed

  This is somewhat normal. It's called a cystic nodule, and it happened to me
  after my subcision. If you want, e-mail me and we can discuss this further.

  Stay strong,
  Mike
 

 

  Everyone Can Have Clear Skin -- Getrude, 15:06:46 01/08/03 Wed

  Dearest All,
  A year ago, I would never ever dream my skin could be what it looks today. I
  was destined to have horrible skin and scars that would haunt me 4 life. I
  could never face anyone without makeup.
  A year later, I really cannot believe how much better my skin had gotten. I
  started by using Obagi, it was a tough period, all the shedding and I looked
  horrid. Around August, I stopped and started using skin biology and TNS
  Complex recovery. It really improved as Obagi had cleared up my skin but it
  was not smooth. It had left many holes. In oct, I started my IPL and Cooltouch
  tog with MDA at Dr Martin Huang clinic at MD Specialist Healthcare.

  I have gone through 3 IPL/CT and 2 MDA and together with the proper skincare
  and internal supplements, I feel my skin today is really amazing. People
  always ask me what I do and ask why my skin so fair but yet rosy and radiant.

  I feel that the entire process of being in misery in the past thinking I was
  fated to today is a journey of self-discovery. It's all about empowering
  yourself and not hearing from others this is good and that is good. It;s all
  about u taking control of your own life and knowing what's good for u and not
  blindly just following. That's how my friendship with Dr Huang is, it's about
  sharing knowledge and seeking for his advice in a responsible way and not
  expecting surgeons to perform miracles. Only then can your skin really get
  better without disappointment. You have to take ownership of your own skin and
  not let others determine what is better for u. Do drop me a line if u got
  something to share with me

  Love,
  Getrude
 

 

  Excision and subcision -- ping, 10:04:18 01/08/03 Wed

  sarah,
  I didn't know of subcision when I did excision. My doctor never mentioned that
  to me. Personally, I really think subcision will yield better results.

  So, do ask for a few more opinions from doctors before deciding. Anyway, both
  procedures will cause you bruises which takes about a week or two to suside
  away.
 

 

  ping - excision -- sarah, 09:48:05 01/08/03 Wed

  Ping: One last one: Why didnt you get subscision? What made you decide on
  excision?

  THANKS
  Sarah
 

 

  How Long? -- JB, 08:18:23 01/08/03 Wed

  Hello Everyone, I've recently had laser resurfacing four weeks ago with an
  Erbium YAG laser and I really haven't seen any results. My face looked pretty
  good at one week and then all the scars came back. My scarring is on my cheeks
  and they are moderate. Question...Will they improve? And if so how long will
  it take to see improvement? Thank you for your time. JB
 

 

  Questions... -- bm, 06:32:28 01/08/03 Wed

  Age :27
  Gender :Male
  Country :US

  Hello,

  First I wanted to say that it's been great reading this board. I am 26 and
  have had pretty bad acne (mostly on my cheeks w/scarring) since I was a teen.
  I'd tried all the grocery store treatments to no avail. Anyway about this time
  last year I decided to start shaving with a razor instead of an electric
  shaver, and my acne disappeared in two weeks! It never came back. I guess the
  cause is different for all of us and I finally stumbled across mine.

  Anyhow I've had a great deal of scarring... some discoleration and lots of
  pits, all on my cheecks. The girls at the clinic say that it's "not that bad"
  but I'm not sure what that means. I guess it's moderate, and the scarring is
  anywhere from a year to six or seven years old. I tried neutrogena's "visibly
  even" moisturizer for six months and it actually helped, very slightly, but
  the improvement felt immaterial. A week ago I went to a clinic and had the
  first of four to sixteen microdermabrasions. Actually, the skin does feel a
  bit healthier and quite a bit smoother--the texture just seems to have
  improved, at least to the touch. However the depressions and the
  discolorations are still there. I'll give it another three or so treatments
  and then start to think of my options.

  I have dark brown skin (indian) so I'm told that most of the more aggressive
  treatments, including most of the laser treatments, are no-no. I've been told
  that the cooltouch laser might help but I haven't looked into it. I honestly
  don't know what my options are. The scarring has been crippling, in many ways,
  but over the last few years I've figured out how to function pretty well in
  spite of it. I'm a manager at a nice company and do some public speaking, and
  that comes easily, but inside I'm still profoundly introverted because of the
  acne and all the consequences (bullying, being alone) when I was younger. I
  have a fair amount of money set aside to fight this problem, now that the acne
  has disappeared, but I worry that the treatment I need hasn't been invented
  yet! In any case, I have high hopes that the microdermabrasion will at least
  minimize enough of the scarring to make me feel like I've earned a small
  victory. I could use that right about now.

  Hmm... unfortunately I have no advice to offer or questions to ask (other than
  opinions from others with darker skin & similar scarring, or opinions on the
  options I mentioned or anything I've forgotten) but I did want to stop in and
  say hi.
 

 

  ATTN: Lisa -- Karl, 03:37:50 01/08/03 Wed

  This is somewhat normal. It's called a cystic nodule, and it happened to me
  after my subcision. If you want, e-mail me and we can discuss this further.

  Stay strong,
  Mike
 

 

  erbium dark skin -- Mikey, 02:49:03 01/08/03 Wed

  Has anyone in here with olive skin undergone erbium laser treatment for there
  acne scar??? If so did it cause any permanent discoloration?? Where the
  results good?? What kind of scars did u have ice pick, boxcar, rolling, deep
  or shallow? Any other complication that happened from the treatment??
 

 

  Taylor---tri-reduction or elicina -- Bob, 17:41:32 01/07/03 Tue

  I was also recently having to decide whether to go with elicina or
  tri-reduction. After much reading it appears to me the tri-reduction is much
  stronger and should give quicker and better results. I ordered the
  tri-reduction combo with retinol because I'm 46 and don't get acne scars very
  often anymore. For someone that is under 30 or still gets acne scars they
  recommend getting it without the retinol. With retinol is the stronger one but
  some people who are still getting acne have some reaction to the retinol. I
  was pleasantly surprised in how quick I received it in the mail. I've been
  using it for going on 4 days now and I've had no side effects. I'll be able to
  give a better report on my results in a month I hope though since I have a
  couple of b